9 comments

1. Hi,

   I think it’s funny that the two guys actually used stereotypes about women in the divorce and marriage discussions. Why the bias guys?

   1. Hi Sara,

      Thank you for your comment, would you let us know which part of the discussion you are referring to?

2. First off, a little background information about myself. I have never been divorced or even married for that matter. I am a law student. So my fascination with this topic stems from a legal perspective.

   In the last 30-40 year dramatic changes have taken place in divorce law in the United States. I believe these changes in divorce law are one of the most important factors in understanding the increase in the divorce rate (in the US at least). Before 1970, divorce could only be granted only if one party was found to have committed some marital fault such as cruelty, abuse or adultery. In the event of a divorce, the wife would only be entitled to alimony (unless she was at fault) and whatever property was in her name. There was no recognition of shared assets acquired during the marriage. Since then, states have adopted the concept of “no fault divorce,” and with it a more complicated legal framework for dividing marital property. Now, you (and especially the lawyers involved) have more of an opportunity to PROFIT monetarily from the divorce. 60 years ago if a wife worked to put her husband through medical school and got divorced shortly after he graduated, her lawyer couldn’t ask the court to compensate her for putting him through school, now times have changed and there are all sorts of legal opportunities for monetary profit.

   Divorce and Family law is a very lucrative albeit at times dirty field of law to practice. The business aspect of it encourages the breakup of a relationship/family and that is very sad. The average cost of a divorce in the US is somewhere around $15,000. The more complicated your divorce (ie child custody, division of joint assets, division of property….) the more your divorce will cost.

   The saddest part about a divorce is when kids are involved. I have often heard this in our iranian community how divorce law is unfair in Iran because the custody of the child goes to the man. I don’t think that just because the woman is more likely to get custody of her kids in a US court than a court in Iran means our system of divorce law here is fair. I hope you make a point of this in your program because kids have no role in a divorce, it’s the parents indiscretion that causes it and yet it is always the most unfair for the kids because once it’s over the mom and dad can always easily move on and find another husband/wife, but can the kids ever get their family back? It seems unfair to me that the two irresponsible adults get the easy way out in both Iran and the US. It’s also a sad statistic that most children of divorced parents end up growing up to get divorces themselves. I think the reason for that is you learn a lot about relationships and marriage from your own parents. If you’ve never seen a strong relationship or been in a strong family how can you be expected to have one or know what one is?

   The family is important in society. Anyone that you see that’s ever gotten somewhere in life did it with a strong family behind them. It’s important in shaping ones character, mannerisms, confidence, attitude, even jobs, grades and future mate prospects. You can always tell just by talking to someone/spending time with them whether or not they were raised by a strong family that invested their time and love in them or if they were raised by hyenas. Which is always why I reject the notion that “tool mikesheh ta adam o beshnasi…” You can tell a lot about a person just from a short conversation. And by 6 months-1year you should have a pretty good idea of the other persons character strengths/weaknesses and whether or not you can accept/tolerate them and live with them.

   Also some other comments were made on your facebook page about age and sexual compatibility being factors… it’s difficult for me to believe that this is the case because the divorce rate is increasing while the average age of marriage is also increasing… if anything I think the fact that it has become more acceptable to have premarital relations now that it was say 50-60 years ago has contributed to the rise in divorce rate because people confuse sex with love. Iman brought up an interesting point on facebook that when you live with someone for a few years you might be suprised to find out new things about your partner which might be different from what you expected. I think the problem arises when people start to expect too much of others. People have to understand that you cannot just mold someone into what you expect the perfect mate to be. It’s interesting how when it comes to our own families people can accept their mothers/fathers/sisters/brothers/cousins for who they are unconditionally because they are our family, but when it comes to their husband/wife they don’t give them the same unconditional acceptance as see divorce as the only solution to a disagreement.

3. Please stop using these cheesy topic pictures on your website. They’re really too much….

4. I would like to address some additional points that were made towards the end of your show. Towards the end of the program, the very taboo topic of “rabeteye jensi va aya in rabete bayad ghabl az ezdevaj basheh ya na…” came up. I also feel that this topic needs to be addressed more in the Iranian community but not for some of the reasons that were mentioned in your program. I believe Iranians have a tendency to over estimate how conservative their own culture is while underestimating how similar their culture can be to American culture, especially in more rural areas where there is more of an emphasis on strong family values. (maybe this could be a different topic for you to explore altogether)

   When I was in high school, these rings were somewhat of a (I guess you could say fashion statement). Almost half the girls at our school wore them on their left hands to showcase their beliefs. And I should note that I went to a public high school:

   http://secure.jamesavery.com/jewelry/search/product/R-1347/True-Love-Waits-Ring/#BVRRWidgetID

   Tell me, as conservative as you may think Iranian families/parents are, have you EVER heard of an Iranian (or muslim) family buying their daughter (or son) a RING to showcase their virginity to the whole entire world????
   BTW, the females that wear these rings wear them from age 13 and take them off when they get engaged to wear their engagement ring. I personally have many American friends from high school that either still wear one of these rings or now wear a wedding ring….

   Secondly, you may be interested in reading some of Naomi Ragen’s books. Jephte’s Daughter in particular, to see just exactly how liberal and open minded our society (even inside Iran) is in comparison to other areas of the middle east like Israel.

   Thirdly, you may be interested in watching the autobiographical movie “Coal Miner’s Daughter” about the true life story of country music singer Loretta Lynn and the circumstances of her marriage. The movie may still be available to watch on youtube.

   Now, back to the original point that was addressed in your show. I think there is an age where we all begin to form our own personal beliefs about this topic. I will share mine with you only because I believe some good will come from it for young listeners, particularly those who are female. I only ask that my identity be kept confidential/private because this is a highly private matter, should any of this be used for future shows.

   When I was a freshman in college, I took a course “political philosophies and ideologies” as part of my humanities elective. In that course, I read a book by Kate Millet entitled “Sexual Politics,” which was highly influential in forming the beliefs I have now regarding this topic. I should note that Kate Millet was also among the first group of American feminists to travel to Iran shortly after the revolution, she even wrote a book about her experience there “Going to Iran.” She is however, a very radical and extreme feminist and most likely would not agree with everything I have to say regarding this topic, but here goes: Like millet, I think “rabeteye jensi” has an undeniable yet very frequently neglected POLITICAL aspect to it in which one side (the male) will almost always substantially benefit more than the other side (the female). I believe the reason why the male always benefits more from this relationship (particularly outside the legal protection the contract of marriage provides the woman with) is not cultural, but rather biological. It is biology that burdens the woman, not culture. Think about the physical/biological aspect of this relationship for a second:

   1) The male has a much larger/stronger physique than the female. Thereby giving him a greater degree of control in the physical relationship. (Forgive me for saying this I’m doing it to illustrate a point) But think about some common positions that are illustrated in the media and ask your self who is in the more vulnerable position, it is almost always the female, because she is smaller than the male.

   2) Biology places the burden/risk of pregnancy on the female, not the male.

   3) (I hope that you the reader are a mature person, of sound mind. Once again, forgive me for giving too much detail, I am doing it to illustrate a point) Think about a female who has never engaged in such relations before vs. a male that has never engaged in such relations before and ask yourself who is more likely to have a more pleasant/enjoyable first time experience?

   Bearing these biological restrictions/differences in mind, should we really be so shocked that people have a double standard for men and women regarding this topic? or that parents are so strict when it comes to their daughters? or that maybe women are more hesitant to engage in this activity outside the legal protection the contract of marriage provides them with? Afterall, these women are only pursuing their own interests, just as men are pursuing their own interests. It just so happens that because of biology our interests conflict and this conflict is where it becomes “political.” I think expecting a women to engage in premarital relations without a marriage contract is much like telling a businessman “send me 200 cars/watches/whatever and I’ll send you the money once they get here, we don’t need to sign a contract, kamelan mahramane…” I mean come on people, ye kam ensaf dashte bashin.

   **So, in response to “aya in rabete bayad bashe ya nabashe” fekr mikonam soale behtari keh ma mitoonim inja az khodemoon beporsim in e keh aya ENTEZAR e in rabete ro ma bayad dashte bashim az kasi keh hanooz bahash ezdevaj nakardim? kheyli jalebe keh ma hamechiz ro mindazim gardane khanoom ha. dar barnameye 2 sal pishetoon keh hamin chand vaght pish linkesh tooye facebook post shod sohbate bi aberooee ye in khanoom haee shod keh miran jarahi mikonan, chera hichvaght sohbate bi aberooee ye mard haee keh in entezarat ro az khanoom ha ghabl az ezdevaj daran nemisheh? kheyli ma bayad movazeb bashim keh ye mohiti tooye farhang e ma gharar nagire keh hameye khanoomha fekr konan keh hameh daran in kar o mikonano hameye mard ha in entezar o azashoon daran. Chon yek hamchin mohit baes mishe keh khanoomha tahte feshar gharar begiran va natoonan baraye khodeshoon khoob tasmim begiran va farda beran yek kari bekonan keh pas fardash pashimoon beshan. **

   On another note, some talk was made about Osama bin Laden conspiracy theories. There were some theories in the internet a while back linking his “death” supposedly in 2001 to the assasination of benazir bhutto, who was former prime minester of pakistan (ironically the country they “killed” him in) you may be interested in reading: http://littlecountrylost.blogspot.com/2008/01/benazir-bhutto-omar-shiekh-murdered.html

5. Hello! there is a great information for every one. really nice posting. Thanks for providing this beautiful article. really help full blog*

6. A Presentation by Kambiz Hosseini “Political Satire on Television”
   Location: 2050 Valley Life Sciences Building University of California, Berkeley
   Time: ‎4:00PM Sunday, May 22nd

   Iranican fans see you there!

7. خوب ، خیلی‌ جالب بود حرفای این شنونده ، اما کاملا مشابه آنچه که شاهد میگه بود … تو حرفش جایی از دوست داشتن نیست ، کاملا به روابط به عنوانه پلیتیک نگاه کرده که این خودش مورد انتقاد من هست ، اصلا ایجاد رابطه با این طرز تفکرات کاملا اشتباه و سرانجامش هم ناخوشاینده

   So , first , No one wanted to compare the Iranian culture to others to say “Iranians should behave like Americans or other people”. We spoke about the real solutions independent of any culture with respect to human nature and spirituality.

   اینهمه آدمای‌ بزرگ مثل عرفا ، روانشناسان و … آدمایی مثل “کریشنا مورتی” و خیلیای دیگه اومدن و حرفشون اینه که ” پیش داوری ” رو کنار بگذارید … محض فکر کنید ، محض
   It’s hard but it works like a magic …

   تمام این دستان حساسیت خانوم‌ها و خانواده ها به روابط جنسی‌ و دور نگاه داشتن دختر‌هاشون از این رابطه ها و وارد نشدن خیلی‌ از دخترها به این موضوع به خاطره اینکه باکره بودن یه ارزش محسوب می‌شه ، شاید حتا واسه بعضی از آقایون ، شاید خیلی‌ از آقایون ایرونی‌ حتی … اما آیا این درسته ؟ قطعا نه !! توی بسیاری از کشورها جشنی میگیرند برای دخترها وباکرگی رو برمیدارند تا این تابو برداشته بشه … حالا از خودتون محض سوال کنید ، آیا این باکرگی ارزشه ؟؟؟

   اما دلایلی که برای بیشتر منفعت داشتن مرد در رابطهٔ جنسی‌ گفته شده که بنظر من اصلا ارزش علمی‌ نداره (اگر داره اعلام کنید) و فقط از سوی‌ یه فمینیست به عنوان نظر شخصی بیان شده باید بگم که :

   ۱- شاید مرد به لحاظ فیزیکی‌ از زن قویتر باشه (که اونم الان اگه نگاه کنید ماشاالله خانوما خوب ورزش میکنند) ولی‌ می‌شه بگین این چه ربطی‌ به روابط جنسی‌ داره ؟؟؟ مگه میخوان چی‌ کار کنن ؟ من خودم تو تجربیاتی که داشتم (اونا‌یی که زنان نرمالی بودن) و بلحاظ سکسی باهم جور بودیم بعد از برداشته شدن اون تابوها و احساس نزدیکی‌ ، بیشتر از من خواهان سکس بودند و واسشون سکس خیلی‌ اهمیت داشت !! این خودش جای سواله … چرا ؟ پس این فیزیکال نیست ، روانیه …

   ۲- حاملگی درست … اما الان با این تکنولوژی که دیگه حل شده و موضوع سختی نیست … و الان به خاطره بیماریها و بچه ، مردا بیشتر مراقب هستن تا خانوما …

   ۳- راجع به این که کی‌ بیشتر دوست داره سکس داشته باشه هم که از قبل توضیح دادم که بخاطر چی‌ به نظر میاد آقایون در ابتدا بیشتر علاقه دارن …

   و خیلی‌ جالبه مقایسه روابط ایشون و آوردن مثال آقای بازاری و معامله کردن که خودش نشون دهنده دید کاملا مادی به این مساله است … خدای من !! دست بردارید … پس جای عشق و دوست داشتن کجاست ؟؟؟

   حالا بذارید من از تجربهٔ شخصیم بگم ، من وقتی‌ جوون بودم افکار کاملا خاصی‌ داشتم و اصلا رابطهٔ جنسی‌ رو در یک رابطهٔ افلاطونی ( به قول روانشناس ها) درست نمیدونستم ، واسه همین وقتی‌ با کسی‌ آشنا شدم که خیلی‌ هم دوسش داشتم فکر کردن به اینکه بهش دست هم بزنم آزارم میداد … و جالب اینه که ما ۴ سال هر روز باهم بودیم اما سکسی درکار نبود ، هیچی … حتی در حد لمس و این چیزها هم نبود … اما ما عاشق هم شدیم … بهترین لحظات رو با هم داشتیم اما یه چیزی این میون کم بود … و بگم هر دو کاملا جوان ، بدون تجربهٔ ازدواج و رابطهٔ جنسی‌ و … اما جالبه بعدها که رابطهٔ جنسی‌ به صورت خیلی‌ جالب وارد رابطهٔ ما شد و خیلی‌ از مرزها برداشته شد و رابطه عملا کامل شد ، اون به من گفت که بعد مدتی‌ اون چقدر دوست داشته که من باهاش سکس داشته باشم ، اگر بگم خیلی‌ زیاد بازهم کم گفتم … و اصلا براش مهم نبود که باکرگی داشته باشه یا نه … نمیدونم باید بفهمید اگه حتی یه تجربهٔ رومانتیک داشتید قبلن !! و حالا کار ندارم که ما چطوری بعدها جدا شدیم اما اگه سکس زودتر وارد رابطهٔ ما میشد ، خیلی‌ از مسائل شخصیتی زودتر خودشو نشون میداد .

   پس همهٔ این حرفا همش به خاطر نبود یه چیز تو رابطه است : “عشق” … همون چیزی که در تمام برنامه بهش اشاره می‌کردم . اگه از اول جلوش گرفته بشه و محدود بشه مثل رابطهٔ من که گفتم و تابوی ذهنی‌ جلوش بیاد هیچ وقت به شناخت کامل از طرف نمیرسید که هیچ ، ۲ نفر از رابطه لذت کافی‌ نمیبرند هم هیچ ، عشق هم خودشو نشون نمیده چون ما به دلیل انسان بودنمون باید سکس داشته باشیم با کسی‌ که میخوایم دوستش داشته باشیم … و وقتی‌ این هارو جلوشو بگیریم اون وقت که این بحثا همیشه هست و هیچ وقت هم تمومی نداره ، چون به قول ایشون هر کس به خود اندیشد ، در صورتیکه وقتی‌ دوست داشتن باشه هر کس به دیگری اندیشد …

   So I should mention that all I said is about a normal human …

   حالا اینکه کسی‌ نرمال نیست ، یعنی‌ مریضی روانی‌ داره در هر حدی ، عقده‌های کودکی داره ، مشکل شخصیتی داره و … اینا دیگه برمیگرده به انسان شناسی ما که چقدر بدونیم و علایم رو از طرف بگیریم !! و جالبه بدونید اونا‌یی که بیشتر از همه از سوء استفاده شدن ترس دارن بیشتر از همه هم سرشون میاد چون تو رابطه پلیتیک و زرنگی رو قاطی‌ میکنند و طرف هم میفهمه . اینجاست که دوست داشتن جاشو به مسابقهٔ سوء استفاده میده و آخر داستان هم که معلومه … جالبه بدونید ما خودمون با این تفکرات پلیتیک آدمی‌ که میتونه دوسمون داشته باشه و ما دوسش داشته باشیم و در نهایت عاشق هم بشیم رو تبدیل به دشمنمون می‌کنیم و بعد میگیم :”عشق و نفرت دوروی یه سکه اند ” اینو مرتب در مورد دوستان خودمون هم تجربه می‌کنیم فقط این وسط یه سکس اضافه می‌شه که نمیدونم چرا خانوم‌ها فکر می‌کنن اونا این وسط ضرر می‌کنن ، در صورتیکه در اون موقع ( یعنی‌ در هنگام سکس ) حال خوبی‌ دارن و لذت میبیرن ( اینو من نمیگم ، علم میگه ) … که اگر اینطور نیست ( که اونم وقتیه که با هم به لحاظ فکری یا فیزیکی جور نیستند) ، کسی‌ مجبور نیست که این کارو بکنه !! و بدونید اگه یه بار یا چند بار این کارو نکنید این جور بودن رو نخواهید فهمید و بعد از اینکه خیلی‌ چیزا بینتون شکل گرفت به این واقعیت وحشتناک میرسید و اینجوریه که همه چی‌ یه هو عوض می‌شه یا در مورد اونا‌یی که بهش فکر نمیکنن (یعنی تابو هست براشون) کم کم عوض می‌شه چون بدنشون و فکرشون اینو می‌خواد و طلب می‌کنه بعنوان پستاندار … اما بعضی‌‌ها با اینکه می‌فهمن با طرف به لحاظه سکسی‌ جور نیستند به خاطر اینکه فکر میکنند این مسئله زشت اهمیتی نداره بخاطر نگاه داشتن طرف باهاش ادامه میدان و خوب خیلی‌ راحت بعد از مدتی‌ وقتی‌ این به یه عادت تبدیل شد و احساس ازش جدا شد ، اون وقت یا مرد خیانت می‌کنه یا زن ، یا هردوشون ، و بعد که اون یکی‌ میفهمه میگه اون از من سوء استفاده کرده

8. In response to Omid’s comment. (Sorry omid man font farsi rooye keyboardam nadaram va majbooram ino intori type konam amma chizaye toe neveshti copy paste mikonam va javabesho midam)

   تو حرفش جایی از دوست داشتن نیست

   bastegi dare keh eshgh ro tooye chi bebini. man fekr mikonam keh mozooye eshgh kheyli amigh tar az rabeteye jensie. Doe nafar bayad betoonan khoob ham digar ro khoob dark konan keh ashegh bashan. Dark kardan ye masaleye psychological va intellectual hast masaleye jensi neest. kheyli ha hastan keh in rabete ro ta bad az ezdevaj nadashtan va alan 20, 30, 40…. sale keh daran ba ham zendegi mikonan va razi ham hastan. Zemnan, tajrobeye man in boodeh keh intor ham digeh neest keh harfesh aslan zadeh nasheh va chize gofte nashe. Harfhaee gofte mishe va ta yek andazeh shenakhte khoobi az shakhsiate taraf peyda mikoni.

   “No one wanted to compare the Iranian culture to others to say “Iranians should behave like Americans or other people”. We spoke about the real solutions independent of any culture with respect to human nature and spirituality…”

   Oh really? I seem to remember these phrases come up in the conversation “neshoon mide tooye farhange ma cheghadr gheire ghabele ghaboole…” Man faghat mikhastam begam keh in tablighat ee keh mibinid tooye serial ha o tv o internet o ina hamash baraye pool e, va intor keh fekr mikonid hanooz dar farhang e amrikaee ham in masaleh khoob ja nayoftadeh.

   حالا از خودتون محض سوال کنید ، آیا این باکرگی ارزشه ؟؟؟

   LOL. Fekr konam manzoore man ro khoob nafahmidi va man tozihate bishtari nemidam. Amma ye khorde fekr kon khob! Man bad az sohbati keh ba yeki az hamkaranam (Americaee) keh mikhast yeki az hamin angoshtar haye “true love waits” baraye dokhtaresh bekhareh, vaghti keh behem goft chera mikhast hamchin kari bekone, beh in natijeh residam keh hagh ba pedaro madar hast. Chon kheyli az dokhtar ha vaghean traumatize mishan tooye in rabete, va man pesari nadidamo nashnidam keh bad az dashtane hamchin rabete ee traumatize beshe. Zemnan, dokhtar ha ye meghdar bishtar emotional beh in masaleh negah mikonan va pesara moteasefaneh kamtar va agar tajrobeye badi dashte bashe dokhtareh, mitoone dar rabetehaye ayandash hata ba hamsaresh ham asar bezare.

   ۱- شاید مرد به لحاظ فیزیکی‌ از زن قویتر باشه (که اونم الان اگه نگاه کنید ماشاالله خانوما خوب ورزش میکنند) ولی‌ می‌شه بگین این چه ربطی‌ به روابط جنسی‌ داره ؟؟

   Khodeh rabeteye jensi mage yek rabeteye physiki neest? Pesar ha control e bishtar ee az khanoomha mitoonan dashte bashan tooye in rabete. Baz ham agar manzoore man ro nemifahmi, hatman boro ketabe kate millet ro bekhoon.Dar in ketab mesal haye jalebi ham mizare az literature va kheyli az harf haye shayad zesht ya tohin amiz ee keh beh khanoom ha mizanan dar englisi va hata dar farsish ham hast (va in harfha va kalameha could also psychologically play into one of the reasons women are typically not as willing as men to do this outside of marraige)

   ۲- حاملگی درست … اما الان با این تکنولوژی که دیگه حل شده و موضوع سختی نیست … و الان به خاطره بیماریها و بچه ، مردا بیشتر مراقب هستن تا خانوما

   Na omid jan, hamchin hal ham nashode! In masaleh hata baraye kheyli az doostam keh ezdevaj kardan kheyli masaleye moheimie chon hanooz daran dars mikhoonan. Hameye badbakhtie khanoomha too mohit e sare kar ham sar hamin masaleh hast. A woman’s labor is more expensive than a man’s because the company will have to pay for her maternity leave should she bear children. This is one of the reasons I think women will never earn as much as men in the same position, even in US.

   و خیلی‌ جالبه مقایسه روابط ایشون و آوردن مثال آقای بازاری و معامله کردن که خودش نشون دهنده دید کاملا مادی به این

   Manzoore man az mesali keh gozashtam in bood keh women have a right to the legal protection the marriage contract provides them with. They have a right to engage in this activity with peace of mind, and honestly in this society (even in America) the only way they can really do that is with a marraige contract. Zanha ghabl az ezdevaj in hagh ro daran, va bayad ham, beh fekre ayandeye khodeshoon bashan chon khodeshoon agar beh fekre khodeshoon nabashan hichkas dige neest tooye in donya keh biad barashoon delsoozi kone. You have to love yourself before you can love someone else.

   Also, in this Iranian society we live in dar kharej. Hameye iroonihaye shahr hamdigar ro mishnasan. Lets say you go have a physical relationship with one of them, then 2-3 years later you marry someone else. Don’t you think your previous relationship could create some serious baggage for you should your husband/wife find out about it? Mitoone dar ezdevaje ayandemoonam asar bezare va baese moshkelat besheh. Man tanha harfi keh daram mizanam inja ine keh fekre alan ro nakonid, fekr konid badesh chi mishe va az khodetoon beporsid keh arzesh dare ya na?

   Man fekr mikonam in tasmim yek tasmime khosoosie. khanoom ha in tasmim ro bayad baraye khodeshoon begiran va beh fekre ayandeh va manafeye khodeshoon bashan ghabl az ezdevaj. Va aghayon hich haghi nadaran keh tooye in tasmim dekhalat konan ya harfi bezanan. Agar yek nafar nakhast, khob entezaresh ro ham nabayad dashte bashim, bayad ehteram bezarim.

   Dar zemn, borhan, kheyli mamnoon az in keh un email e dovomam ro inja post kardi keh hameh bebinan va zoodi ham behem khabar dadi, dastet dard nakoneh;)